Chun-Shan (Sandie) Yi: Radical Intimacy
Last week I had the gift of sharing space with artist, art therapist, disability rights advocate, and scholar Chun-Shan (Sandie) Yi. Her current body of work Crip Couture operates at the intersection of fashion and disability arts. She creates “wearable objects made to explore identity, intimacy, desire and sexuality of the disabled bodymind.” In our conversation, we reflected on the current moment, disability culture and heritage, and the practice of creating systems of reciprocity and care through the lens of disability justice.
Irina: What are some ways that folks with disabilities are being impacted right now that’s not visible or being talked about right now?
Sandie: There’s a lot. A lot of the ways that people with disabilities have adapted to life prior to the pandemics is now being experienced by able bodied folks. For a lot of disabled people there’s so much waiting, waiting for someone to assist, waiting for services, waiting when someone who says they’re going to show up and then doesn’t show up. One of my friend’s PA (Person Assistant) left them in the middle of the night and he was basically left alone, that was not during the pandemic that’s everyday life.
Irina: What do you think is the impact of constantly having to wait as a regular part of life?
Sandie: Unfortunately it is part of the norm for many disabled people, but people figure things out. I feel like even though I don’t rely on another person to provide care for myself, so many of my crip brothers and sisters - people get to be great at planning because that’s what their life requires them to do. There’s a lot of anxiety that goes into that planning. What if this person doesn’t come? It takes time to give training. Everything takes time and money. A lot of people are getting COVID-19 because they live in a nursing home. This is why many of my colleagues are saying they don’t want this capitalized approach [to dealing with disability] where people don’t get to choose the lives that they want.
Irina: What has been some of that work to resist that?
Sandie: People have been protesting, organizing, of course that’s different now. I saw some of my colleagues in Texas protesting outside of the official’s office in protective gear. A lot of online campaigns.
Irina: How is your political work connected to your research?
Sandie: I’m doing my thesis work on the intersection of crip culture, fashion, and care. Thinking about what it means to create a garment for someone’s specific body, lived experience, as a way to create heritage. Let’s look at disability culture and the way that crips represent themselves as a cultural heritage.
Irina: I love that you’re using the word heritage. It’s like reclaiming your own narratives, histories, and culture. I see that you’re working on masks and doing other forms of mutual aide. How is this moment impacting your research?
Sandie: This is something I’ve actually struggled with. For past body adornments that I’ve made, I’ve been very careful about centering a person’s experience and a reflection of how this person acquired their disability and how they defined what health and what beauty means. When I’m making masks you don’t see the signature visually. For my last project I was working with a friend of mine who has Psoriasis, I consensually collected her skin flakes and made sewings about that experience. That’s a signature of a very specific experience.
Now that I’m making masks, I’m using other people’s patterns, I’m not creating something from scratch. But I think in terms of the process, talking about crip culture - crip culture is the conceptual framework - the way that we reach out to fellow disabled siblings and the way that we extend our care. Taking time and making it with our own hands and thinking about community care. I’m thinking not only about my disabled siblings but also those who support them. If you have a disability you’re not the only person who’s qualified to be part of this community, but really looking at an ecosystem that allies play a role in.
Irina: Oftentimes allyship or co-conspiratorship especially around cultural production, there’s often concern around cultural appropriation. I’m curious how you see allies of co-conspirators - what are ways that you’ve seen that happen that feels in alignment with your values?
Sandie: For people interested in becoming a Personal Assistant, a lot of folks show up to support because they need money. That’s a reality, people need jobs and these are the types of jobs that work with their schedule and their availability. I’ve been struggling with how to support or how to create space for allies that come in with “I know a lot about disability because I’m a social worker or I’m a therapist.” It’s tricky to let people know, that there are so many ways of help and you don’t want to repeat “I’m doing this because you can do it.” It becomes so lopsided “you are so great, you can do anything!” That’s not true.
Irina: How do you not replicate the harm that’s always there? Who’s job is it to educate? It shouldn’t always have to be disabled people. It seems like an extra burden to guide people or undo that assumptions that folks are coming in with.
Sandie: If you just tell people “check your privilege” that doesn’t help them go anywhere. I’m trying to figure out how to re-frame the how-to’s that people expect to receive.
Irina: You speak a lot about co-creation and agency in your art practice, and I’m wondering if there’s anything you would like with regard to how you’re depicted in my painting. Any way you’d like to look, a style, or a feeling?
Sandie: Since I was little I’ve had people asking me if they could do an interview. When I was very young my mom would make the decision for me. When I was a child some woman from the newspaper came to our house and took pictures of me making art and talked to my mom because I was only 7 or 6. When the newspaper came out, the headline said: “The Optimistic and Courageous Sandie Yi.” When I was older there would always be cameras. When I went to Europe in college there was someone following me, taking pictures of me; but at the time I was too afraid to confront them.
When I moved back to Taiwan, I got a lot of interview requests like that and it became pretty clear that they didn’t care about my knowledge. Because I’m a woman and I’m youngish they didn’t care about that. I thought they would be interested in hearing about my art therapy practice but instead they asked me if I was looking for a cure so I wouldn’t carry my genes on to the next generation. Which is not what I signed up for.
So long story short, I always have a hard time when people ask me for interviews. But recently, I have started to be curious about how my hands are depicted with my permission. I don’t want another depiction of a “Courageous Depiction of Sandie.”
Irina: You’re bringing up so many good points about portraiture and how to do it in a way that’s not objectifying or non-consensual. So how would you like to be depicted?
Sandie: I have another friend that I was collaborating with who was drawing a comic book. She would ask me to freeze when I was doing something so she could draw me in action. Since I’m sewing, I’m moving around a lot so if there’s a time that you’d like me to freeze I’m happy to.
Irina: What has been your transition from being an artist to an art therapist?
Sandie: I’ve been making art since I was three years old. I remember I would always wake up first thing in the morning and start to draw. As I became an adult, the process of making art started to bring up a lot of memories. I remembered that I had a teacher when I was young who told me “you should adopt children.” At the time, I was only in 6th grade so I thought that’s good advice because a lot of children need love. Looking back on it years later I realize that she was saying that I should have children because I would pass on my disability. At the time I was not connected to the disability justice community but slowly I realized that a lot of the things that happened unconsciously my body forgot to protect itself. It made me realize that I want to help other people experiencing the same issues. That’s how I got into art therapy.
My mentor created this approach called the Open Studio Process. It took place during a time when a lot of art therapists were doing diagnosis to prove that we’re professional therapists. Working within the hospital, very clinical studies. Art therapists were trying to figure out “is this the way that we want to serve people?”
The Open Studio Process was supposed to push against the hierarchy of therapy. At the beginning of the session you set an intention “today I’m going to make art to explore my feelings” and then there’s free association writing, you can write anything like “today the sun is very bright, I’m chilly, I’m bored, etc.” Then everyone comes together and you say everything that you wrote and nobody is allowed to make comments like “tell me why you were angry?” You can only ask questions like “what was the paint that you used?” or “how did you choose the process?” I found this process very empowering because you can be true to who you are including the therapist. A lot of time therapists are not encouraged to revolve themselves. It’s true when you do therapy it’s not about you, it’s about the client. But when we’re holding on to this hierarchy like I’m a “know it all therapist.”
Irina: What you’re sharing is blowing my mind because even as I paint these portraits I’m thinking about what is my role? Am I interviewing people? Is this a back and forth conversation? How vulnerable should I be? Because it is an issue of power, but also how do you hold boundaries? How do you create a space that feels reciprocal and vulnerable when the other person doesn’t share anything at all?
Sandie: I had a therapist once who when I first came in for therapy she definitely noticed my hands but would look away. When I was sharing, going into my train of thought of looking away, that would be the time that she would stare at my hands. I caught her doing so several times but she denied it. I actually thought “I’m going to talk to her supervisor” and then I had to think that as a disabled person I have to do so much work trying to educate my therapist. I actually wrote a chapter about this experience and this is my revenge.
Irina: You have to negotiate how much labor you’re willing to take on. How much energy are you saving for yourself if you’re constantly having to educate other people?
Sandie: When I asked my friend “can I have your permission to start collecting your skin flakes” after I started collecting them it was a conflicting feeling, because Psoriasis is a difficult condition and she would always joke “if I could sell my skin for money I would be very rich.” It’s not just about making something that’s considered shameful and painful beautiful, it’s just acknowledging it for what it is. I was her personal assistant, care assistant and I helped her with removing excess skin flake, lotion, and personal hygiene. I wrote about how I explored intimacy through this experience and the amount of trust and sisterhood that we created together through this caring relationship.
Irina: How do people respond to the work?
Sandie: It’s interesting to see how people respond to it, when people read the art label sometimes they’re like “Oh my gosh, that’s gross!” and they walk away. Or they’ll say “oh honey look! Didn't someone make art with snake skin? This one is human!” What’s interesting about these interactions is that after talking to them more in depth, they begin telling me “my father or my so and so, has something similar and then they start to tell me something very private.” Someone told once me “I have Psoriasis too, I have never thought about this, this is giving me goosebumps, oh my gosh!” This is something that people don’t usually tell other people because it’s shameful and it’s what someone will not understand. I do find that when I’m making work about my own disabilities or my crip siblings’ disabilities, people do come and reveal their disabilities a lot more. It’s like they can’t stop themselves.